Math. National curriculum in England: mathematics programmes of study The statutory programmes of study and attainment targets for mathematics at key stages 1 to 4. Skip over navigation. Daniel explains it here. Yes, but you don’t say “Econ” do you? . Still, 350million Americans agree with you, I’ll do the math. It is also a plural noun that refers to more than one piece of that game, e.g. Math. I actually find the pronunciation of maths as ‘mats’ really wierd and I, as a consequence, use Math instead. The Primary Mathematics Challenge (for primary school pupils) is organised by the Mathematical Association. Most competitions are organised by the UK Mathematics Trust. VIEW COURSES University of Dundee. After all, most communication takes place in reports, emails, and instant messages. @Maeve: I don’t think “dominoes” quite fits with the examples; it is either resolutely singular or resolutely plural, but not both at the same time: Dominoes as a singular noun refers to the whole game, e.g. It constrains the idea by making it singular. A Refresher Course in Mathematics. For K-12 kids, teachers and parents. Get a subscription and start receiving our writing tips and exercises daily! I make a point to do so, as do several of my friends from British Columbia. Do you excel in mathematics? We pursue excellence in all aspects of research, teaching and the communication of mathematics. The author’s argument that the truncated “math” should have an “s” at the end because it’s plural is a terrible one. Insurance underwriter 7. This may have been a concious decision by the British ex-pats or simply a development of the language as also happened in Britain, the two strains of the English language wondering off on different courses. As is British English. To me this goes against the true meaning of English. As for the rest of your statement, Simon Kewan covered that one for me! This post explains the difference, and how to use “program” as a verb. On these pages you will find Springer’s journals, books and eBooks in all areas of Mathematics, serving researchers, lecturers, students, and professionals. “Math” sounds weird. “Maths” makes sense to me because abbreviating a plural to a singular doesn’t fit. I should have written “said poem was to be READ exactly as written”. I’m from the Caribbean the British west indies really. Make sense? Of course, there are a lot of spelling differences between American English and British English – Colin took a look at the reasons behind this in An Englishman in New York – The Problem Of UK-US English in Freelance Writing. Do we all need to reevaluate our positions? I digress though. New mathcentre resources have been contributed to the Community project.Find out more..... mathcentre has evolved to become a well-used and valued online drop-in centre for mathematics resources.Find out more about who used mathcentre in 2013/14 and which were the most popular resources.. Numbas revision and diagnostic exercises for students on basic and other topics in mathematics are … Is, are there any other examples of this? How wonderfully British of you to suggest such a fallacy about the “discovery” and population of North America. Blast Into Math! Should moose have an s at the end as well? When you put an “s” on something… it sounds like this to me: Pol. on July 14, 2010 11:13 am says she writes It grates on my nerves. Finally, there is a pizza context, “Let’s get a Domino’s” (although that’s not something I would ever suggest). Instead of spending time creating your own tests, choose from one of these gap analysis assessments. For me, it has always been “math”, and I recollect this was also the case with most of my friends on the course. Well, it depends on what state you’re talking about, obviously. The answer is that it depends on where you are. It’s sometimes surprising how much argument and disagreement small differences such as that single letter can make. There are four maths a person can master. Yes, it’s common for high school and college classes of Civics and Economics to be referred to in the states as “Civics and Econ” (pronounced EEE-kahn). Math explained in easy language, plus puzzles, games, worksheets and an illustrated dictionary. Web. I don’t say anywhere that plurals should end in an “s”. Game designer 6. Chartered accountant 5. Software engineer 12. The US has provided so many new words and they now form part of the main language as they so rightly should. Problems,children's solutions,interactivities,games,articles. VIEW COURSES University of Sheffield. I was under the impression that both were colloquial, and “Mathematics” is the technical term. Obviously that would be ridiculous. Acoustic consultant 2. How do you refer to a handful of those bricks? will get shortened to pol or pol. The American dialect of English and the British dialect of the same are both divergent strains of the mother tongue, which would be Elizabethan-Georgian English. There is: a very popular building-bricks toy that, if you have children, you’re probably all too used to stepping on. I don’t follow your argument there. Here are a couple of examples of “Lego” and “Legos” in use in different publications: A robot that can build small models from Lego may be a breakthrough for automated manufacturing – if it can stop dropping bricks. ... Our wide range of courses at undergraduate and graduate level … In the US, you’d say “Please pick up your Legos.”. Felicity Chevalier. Maths!” So it appears there isn’t universal consensus even among the Brits. I work with mathematical equations, therefore I am doing math. You just have to look at all the new words that come into being all the time, making the journey from slang to “official” words, it happens all the time. @Simon Kewin How about fungus? This is a bizarre conclusion to come to – Nobody is saying that plural words have to end in s, but that those that do, when abbreviated, should keep that s to show they are plural (see above examples). Logical thinking, problem solving and advanced numeracy are the key components mathematicians need as they provide the theoretical framework for physical science, data analysis and statistics. It’s seems like a sort of political correctness applied to language. Secondary school teacher 11. Actuary 4. Pardon me — mea culpa. If you ever got into contact with the word "mathematics", you have certainly also seen at least one of the nouns from the pair "math" and "maths". America Decides how a word should be spelt and how it should be pronounced and does it’s best to force that spelling on the rest. ” mostly for an American audience”. Mathematical Modeling I - preliminary. And yet, thewizard, every person in the UK (and elsewhere) would say “maths” and not “math”. But this is how most North Americans do abbreviate the word. If you were to accept that American English is a deviated form of traditional English then it would be fair to conclude that ‘Math’ is colloquialism and technical incorrect. Do the other global English speakers not have dictionaries? They would never say “math”. Each math has it’s own specialized rules. I personally delight in the differences. There are a great many Britishisms which I find unpleasing, so I do not use them. Therefore Maths is correct. The Team Maths Challenges promote problem solving and collaboration. Until I subbed a story for critting, I had no idea Americans used the term ‘math’ for mathmatics. 5 - 11. Modern British English is no more akin to Early English than American English is, and ultimately who cares? And ‘math’ loses meaning for me. At worst, it can be said to be a form of racism or cultural snobbishness. Math vs. maths Math and maths are equally acceptable abbreviationsof mathematics. I would assume Brits are just as familiar with their own language. Actually, Simon, in the US it’s very common to say that you majored in “Econ”, similar to saying you majored in “Math”. I came to this page as a result of watching a British TV show I like (I’m an American) where one character kept saying “You do the math!” and his roommate would reply “Sss! Wouldn’t it be right to say: I don’t often agree with North American spelling but I have to agree with them on “math” over “maths”, although that would only apply for “math” as a synonym for “calculations”. UK Mathematics Courses Introduction to Mathematics. I tend to agree with many others though – this is just another of many regional preferences. “Yes, but you don’t say “Econ” do you?”. Math or Maths it doesn’t matter haha..I still love Mathematics. Is correct. Never have I ever seen Mathematics used in a singular fashion. Mathematics Fundamentals. I am British (born and brought up in England) and I did a degree in Mathematics. That should never happen. As The English language originated in England then the correct use is ‘maths’; just because the Americans want to be different does not mean we have to follow. News to me. Still, at least we know where each other is heading when we say math or maths in conversation. Mathematics for Computer Scientists. Our book and eBook portfolio comprises monographs, textbook series, reference works and conference proceedings from the world’s most … to be honest its actually not that big a deal. An Introduction to Matlab. Khan Academy's Mathematics 1 course is built to deliver a comprehensive, illuminating, engaging, and Common Core … So, most people would say “mathematics is my best subject” and not “mathematics are my best subject”. Mathematics is a creative and highly interconnected discipline that has been developed over centuries, providing the solution to some of history’s most intriguing problems. The UK has long established a reputation as one of the best places to study mathematics. To call a diverged language a sister language is an insult. Mathematics students will learn a broad range of skills including pure mathematics, applied mathematics and statistics whilst studying at a UK university. Research scientist (maths) 10. Actually, she writes for an American readership. Investment analyst 9. I would much rather see someone describe themselves as being good at algebra, or geometry, or even calculus. The word mathematic does not exist. UK networking support; Research incentive scheme; Reception. The answer is that it depends on where you are. Both the Oxford and the Merriam-Webster dictionaries say the word is plural – hence the s on the end – but also that it is usually used as if it was a singular noun. We publish many of the most prestigious journals in Mathematics, including a number of fully open access journals. “If you were to accept that American English is a deviated form of traditional English then it would be fair to conclude that ‘Math’ is colloquialism and technical incorrect. Math is incorrect. Main menu Search. It’s like a ‘car park’ in the UK is a ‘parking garage’ in the States. The other isolates itself, accepting no new words from out of the US but forcing its words and spelling on all others. ... University of Kent. These games have no violence, no empty action, just a lot of challenges that will make you forget you're getting a mental workout! Subscribers get access to our archives with 800+ interactive exercises! Being brought up in British English, I always found it a bit weird that some said Math and some said Maths. He had a poem to be read in acting class; said poem was to be written exactly as written…on a very old typewriter…on which the letter “H” was missing. The use of math in your example makes sense as an abbreviation of mathematics as a singular term. It was a bit like a shibboleth – when we encountered someone calling it “maths”, it was a reasonable guess that they weren’t studying mathematics. If you don’t accept this argument then the only conclusion could be that American English is actually a different language and ‘Math’ is correct for that language. Often the solution to a problem will require you to think … Providing complete curriculum coverage from Key Stage 1 to A Level, MyMaths offers interactive lessons, “booster packs” for revision, and assignable homeworks and worksheets, along with a wealth of resources that will help you deliver your teaching in the classroom and at home to develop your students’ confidence and fluency in maths. British use "maths" more often and Americans prefer "math", but this does not define any rule for correct spelling. Numbers. In many global competitions there are math students from the UK dominate collecting most accolades. As I tend to look to French as a first resort to solving problems with English usage (the reason I favour THEATRE over the americanised THEATER, for example) I have since made the effort to change my usage. Really? The only difference is that math is preferred in the U.S. and Canada, and maths is preferred in the U.K., Australia, and most other English-speaking areas of the world. The concept of Mathematics is broad and encompasses many different sub-disciplines, like Trigonometry, Statistics, Algebra etc (note that they’re all singular…). All Right Reserved, An Englishman in New York – The Problem Of UK-US English in Freelance Writing, Punctuation Errors: American and British Quotation Marks. The correct plural, according to LEGO, is “LEGO bricks” or “LEGO sets”. I think this is very obvious and straightforward. Also, if you are an American working at NPR always add the "s" as a sophisification signifier. It is a small country, but very varied in language. While this may be technically wrong due to Roman, Norman, Saxon and other external influences, the English language, as spoken today by The Queen, could be described as ‘Originating from England’. New learners of English don’t use an English Dictionary they use an American English Dictionary. Really? One obvious area is money: the coins and ways of writing money amounts differ. I am not saying either is right or wrong, merely pointing out that any attempt to say “in Britain we say….” is bound to come up with exceptions. I’m not saying ‘”math” “should” have an “s” at the end’ : I’m clearly saying there is a difference between the US and the UK and that there are justifications for either approach. Is it commonwealthers who have this trouble? The Nrich Maths Project Cambridge,England. The US has always strove to change history, ie, milliard now a billion, they won the war etc and surely this is surely them simply trying to put their stamp onto a borrowed language and calling it their own. That is why I love it so much. Registered users will also be able to use the site’s Compare function to see facts and statistics about … Worshiping and Kidnapping, Maeve Maddox – should you add an extra “p” when adding an “ing” to words like “worship” and “kidnap”? In Singapore, we are supposed to follow British English so we say Maths. An older problem is to show that one cannot construct a line of length 3 √2 with ruler and compass, starting with a unit length. Actually, she writes for an American readership. (Note the capitalization, too.) In the UK, you’d say, “Please pick up your Lego.” Note the lack of an “s”. There are four maths a person can master. Do they not count anymore. Want to improve your English in five minutes a day? I diagree with your main point too. Is correct. The nonsensical effect of those sentences is how ‘math’ sounds to us. The Mathematics 1 course, often taught in the 9th grade, covers Linear equations, inequalities, functions, and graphs; Systems of equations and inequalities; Extension of the concept of a function; Exponential models; Introductory statistics; and Geometric transformations and congruence. I disagree with you on so many levels. But are there any other words like math/maths, where one version of English has an “s” at the end of the word, and the other doesn’t? English is a living language and it is totally true to say it has moved from its German roots, with the interspertion of French Norman and Latin. These words, however, are not habitually shortened, making math/maths rather an unusual word. . On the other hand, it could be argued, “math” makes sense because it seems wrong to remove the letters “ematic” from the middle of the word and leave the final “s”. I call on my fellow Americans to resist this most recent and dastardly British invasion! The Addition Pack Download this bumper pack of resources to teach your … (when referencing gymnastics, not buildings known as gymnasiums). Am I wrong? accessibility contact Skip over navigation Terms and conditions; Home; nrich. the most should follow it. Maths.co.uk offers 100s of online primary maths assessments that cover every National Curriculum objective from Y1 to Y6. Math vs. Maths This Grammar.com article is about Math vs. Maths — enjoy your reading! I have one computers. There have been a whole lot of Y’s in the genetic tree of English, and what is spoken in England today is no more directly descended from what was spoken in England 500 years ago than is the English spoken now in Des Moines, Iowa or Brisbane, Australia. Yet mathematics is about reasoning, it’s not a ‘thing’. correct. Interactive maths learning for your whole school. Mathematicians have always been fascinated by numbers. @Meg – of course, you can also have a single statistic – which would be a stat. If you were to accept that American English is a deviated form of traditional English then it would be fair to conclude that ‘Math’ is colloquialism and technical incorrect. I must’ve been fourteen before I realised that “aloominum” was aluminium. Neither abbreviation is correct or incorrect. Is “math” or “maths” the correct word to use as the shortened or colloquial form of the word mathematics? Though I grew up taking MATH classes, I decided to change my habit when I realised many of my French Canadian friends (I am a Montrealer) would use the more British MATHS. How do you spell it shortly, "math" or "maths"? Math is incorrect. We can't claim that any of these abbreviated forms is right or wrong, because they are just shorter versions for the full noun ("mathematics"). They would never say “math”. Data analyst 7. This is the reverse of the math/maths situation, where US English has the “s” tagged onto the end of the word and UK English lacks it. Improve your grammar, vocabulary, and writing -- and it's FREE! There are logical arguments for both spellings. Math is just one of numerous examples on how Americans altered the English language to suit themselves, color being another typical example. How about fungus? I suppose it doesn’t work as an argument, however, if it’s not used that way in the UK! The English spoken in England today has no more claim on “seniority” than any other dialect does. They are part of informal speech for which the only rule that counts is whether it “sounds right” at the time. BBC Teach > Skillswise. Pol is incorrect. “On the other hand, it could be argued, “math” makes sense because it seems wrong to remove the letters “ematic” from the middle of the word and leave the final “s” ”. To many American ears “maths” sounds ridiculous and to many British ears “math” sounds ridiculous. Visitor Application Process; ... in mathematics itself and in our work with researchers studying fundamental questions in a host of other disciplines. Speakers of British English, however, would always say “maths”, as in “I took a degree in maths”. Also, in French, what we call Maths is called ‘Les Maths’; obviously the s is silent, but it’s abbreviated to a plural (from ‘Les mathématiques’ I believe). There are logical arguments for both spellings. and not pols Moose isn’t an abbreviation. I have two computers. As abbreviations, they can't be considered wrong or right. I wrote my entire essay in cap. However, it is The English language. Mathematics courses Whether you’re looking for a solid grounding in maths and statistics or want to specialise in aspects of pure or applied mathematics, an OU maths course will help you stand out from the crowd. It sounds unnatural and very ‘American’ in a forced way. gyms? Physic/physics isn’t a fair comparison. I also don’t see much point in using other words for comparison (economics, gymnastics, politics) because when *those* words are abbreviated, how many retain the ‘s’? It depends! Yes, these are two viable scenarios. Chartered certified accountant 6. Elementary Algebra Exercise Book I. Or combine maths with another subject such as computing and IT, physics or economics. I first learned about “maths” from the British comedian Benny Hill. "Maths" is the abbreviation preferred by the British. “Math” is short for “Mathematics.” “Maths” would seem to be short for “Mathematicss.” Anyone with so limited a perspective that plural words must, by definition, end in the letter S in order to make sense needs to reevaluate their position.”. View. @Sumesh: Do you always capitalise “maths” or did you just do so to make it stand out? Don’t get it. just saying…. it seems to be a single use case scenario, where mathematics is somewhat unique in being an endless plural form with an s at the end where other examples (politics). All cultures naturally evolve their own language or linguistic variant. Did anyone say “all right already” (and a multitude of other such expressions so widely spread by 100 years of entertainment media that tens of millions of Anglo-Saxon descendants use them daily without any thought) before that third generation of German-Jewish New Yorkers? Mathematics Degrees Choose an Open University maths degree accredited by the Institute of Mathematics and its Applications, in which you can include pure maths, applied maths, statistics and/or maths education. of mathematics and include mathematical discussion); and textbooks (which cover a topic in advanced mathematics of the kind that you will encounter in your rst year at university). The notion that just because the modern British form of English is more correct or authentic than the American form of English, simply due to the happenstance that it is the form that evolved in the same geographical location as the mother tongue, is frankly tiresome. Here in the UK we detest the use of American for peoples ( I use the plural as there are many races there ) within the US. I am Canadian, however, and can attest to the fact that some of us prefer the latter. I believe you are correct in assuming that Americans, on the whole, prefer math over maths. ”. I suspect that’s why @timlash mentioned that. It seems to me like asking, “Is the chief of state the President or the Queen?”. Our Mathematical Challenges are the UK’s most popular school mathematics competitions. Note that this was in the late 70’s, way before the major cultural influence of american TV. The Subtraction Pack Support your children’s subtraction skills with our handy pack of resources! Use the interactive table below to filter the rankings by location, and click on individual universities for more information. The QS World University Rankings by Subject are based upon academic reputation, employer reputation and research impact (click here to read the full methodology). In the UK, they say that "mathematics" ends in "s" and so should its short form. It’s manufactured by a company called LEGO. Logical thinking, problem solving and advanced numeracy are the key components mathematicians need as they provide the theoretical framework for physical science, data analysis and statistics. Not for logical reasons so much as one or the other “sounds right.”. Just curious if there’s any precedent. It’s now more important than ever to develop a powerful writing style. There are no universally applicable rules for abbreviations. Is There a Reason “the Reason Why” Is Considered Wrong? Junior Emoji Puzzles Challenge your children to solve these great emoji-themed puzzles! Sorry, but you can’t study maths unless you’re prepared to study econs. Maeve lists some common ones and explains the general rule to follow. So, again I must ask as I have with other supposedly vexing issues (e.g., programme vs. program, defense/defence, practice/practise) WHO exactly, is asking this question? You only have to watch shows like the story of English to be fascinated by the way the language has changed over 1000’s of years. Speakers of British English, however, would always say “maths”, as in “I took a degree in maths”. I have carefully read through all the preceeding comments and all have their pros and cons. By referring to British English it makes it appear that it is just another of the group of English language variants whereas English English would suggest, accurately, that it had been the mother of them all (albeit that it too has changed with time). Who would be confused by this? Yes, as I understand it that’s a pretty good summary. We're doing our best to make sure our content is useful, accurate and safe.If by any chance you spot an inappropriate comment while navigating through our website please use this form to let us know, and we'll take care of it shortly. One of the most famous problems is Fermat’s Last Theorem: if n≥3, the equation x n +y n =z n has no solutions with x, y, z all nonzero integers. I, an American, often use the British forms of words, in writing or speech, because I find them to be more euphonious than their American counterparts. Not that I am working with mathematicals or mathematicsal equations. United Kingdom. To North American speakers of English, the word to use is “math”, as in “I majored in math”, and “maths” would sound wrong. KS2 Maths learning resources for adults, children, parents and teachers organised by topic. As this rule is most common in the US, it logically follows, that those who use the term Math. On the contrary, the American language is extremely heavily influenced by many generations of immigrants. Program vs. Programme, Ali Hale – both British and American English use “program” when talking about computers, but British English uses “programme” for many other areas (e.g. Maths must go to foster consistency. I had a feeling it had to do with this but now I’m positive thanks. @All – Can anyone think of words that only exist as plurals which then get abbreviated – either as a singular or plural word? As an abbreviation of “mathematics” I would still go for “maths”. “borrowed language” – I’m afraid I don’t even know what that means. In practice, it’s simply worth being aware of the geographical differences so that you can use the correct form of the word in your writing. But for one, I don’t at all see how “The (sic) English language originated in England”. Hard pressed to find an American working at NPR always add the `` s '' as a,... The other global English speakers not have dictionaries the rest of your statement, Simon Kewan that. Written ” is fungus ( and, erm, it ’ s own specialized rules was aluminium but can. Fourteen before I realised that “ aloominum ” was aluminium in our work with equations! Science of numbers, space, structure, and click on individual math or maths uk for more information the,... Spending time creating your own tests, choose from one of the main language as they so rightly should,... Get a subscription and start receiving our writing Tips and exercises daily varied language... Per day, guaranteed to language disagreement small Differences such as computing and it, physics or economics maths that. In easy language, that those who use the interactive table below to filter the rankings by,... No other language does that we publish many of the most prestigious journals in mathematics aspects Research. Colloquial, and neither should mathematics and dastardly British invasion provided so many new words and spelling on all.! It had to do so to make it stand out Nrich maths Project,!, your comment about “ non-American English ” terminology and pedagogy differ by many of! About “ non-American English ” will learn a broad range of skills including pure mathematics, applied mathematics and whilst... Impression that both were colloquial, and neither should mathematics to suit,... You will improve your grammar, vocabulary, and a candy bar ) should mathematics trying! What we don ’ t think any of them would retain the ‘ s ’ when they ’ talking... Calculation and numeracy skills everyone, where logic & thinking & math meets fun & games ’... One obvious area is money: the coins and ways of writing money amounts differ other with. Top of relevant independent university ranking lists I suppose it doesn ’ t be reevaluating my position sorry... Shane – no doubt the reverse is true in the UK, had... Known as Legos have long been beloved toys ” – I ’ ll do the math upset. Argue against ‘ maths ’ too text and writing -- and it 's free more, North America was populate... Brits are just as familiar with their own language and puzzles “ econs ” videos and downloadable worksheets help... S sometimes surprising how much argument and disagreement small Differences such as computing and it, or. Generations of immigrants s own specialized rules other isolates itself, accepting no new words from of. We are supposed to follow British English, however, are there any other time UK and maths! And invasion aside ), hence the war against England for Independence that it depends on state! Of my friends from British Columbia at all see how “ the ( sic ) English language originated England... Altered the English language originated in England ’ while “ maths ” as a singular doesn ’ fit... Your degree would be a form of the main language as they rightly! T find it ” for Independence always say “ maths ” some said maths useful include:.. Consensus even among the Brits t universal consensus even among the Brits t even what. Do you? ”, at least we know where each other is heading when we maths! And the communication of mathematics as a singular doesn ’ t universal consensus among! To think … United Kingdom from the Caribbean the British is more right than the other isolates itself, no! To my mind it ’ s why @ timlash mentioned that unpleasing, so I not... Actually has a more obvious meaning from down under! ) on you. @ Cecily your countryman Simon Kewin is the technical term detest the use of makes. Application Process ;... in mathematics even among the Brits you can also have a single statistic which. ” do you? ” abbreviations, they say that `` mathematics '' ends ``... Position, sorry seniority ” than any other dialect does, a casual reading the... Use them junior Emoji puzzles Challenge your children to solve these great maths games and puzzles from of! Study econs English speakers not have dictionaries of Research, teaching and the communication of mathematics many American “! And elsewhere ) would say “ Econ ” do you always capitalise “ maths ” Lego. ” the! Prefer math over maths riddled with hundreds of exceptions considered as a plural noun that refers to than. S like a sort of political correctness applied to language ever seen mathematics used in a singular, ’..., it logically follows, that constantly changes, no other language does that skills our... Resources for children, parents and teachers to enrich learning math/maths rather an unusual word of,... “ program ” as a consequence, use math instead though – this is living! Still go for “ maths ” sounds ridiculous and to many British “... You always capitalise “ maths ” Econ ” do you? ” '' a! Junior Emoji puzzles Challenge your children to solve these great emoji-themed puzzles political correctness applied to language in aspects. Singular term on individual universities for more information the coins and ways of writing money amounts differ that... Wrong or right woop-woop ( with math or maths uk, sprinkles, and ultimately who cares British... Part of the most prestigious journals in mathematics, including a number of fully access! ; Reception refers to more than one piece of that game, e.g, and neither should.! Under your chair? ” a form of traditional English… ” clouded by personal bias own tests, from! As in “ I took a degree in maths ” are created, definitions reassigned, and writing for,... Beloved toys and they now form part of informal speech for which the only that! Can also have a single statistic – which would be a stat to more than one piece of that,. Coins and ways of writing money amounts differ anyway so why bother one...
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